DRAMA ON THE HIGH SEAS! A boat race turns potentially deadly as Dawson and Pacey take their feuding to the seas, while Joey continues feeling caught in the middle. They all need help communicating, honestly...
From Charles: "You all can read more about love languages here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/01/27/understanding-which-love-language-my-partner-speaks-changed-our-relationship/
I also took a Buzzfeed quiz pretending to be the core four to try to figure out what their primary love languages would be. I got.. Dawson, kind words or compliments; Pacey, quality time; Joey, quality time; Jen, physical touch. (I don’t.. Love these answers? FWIW, I got.. physical touch)"
From Traci: "Dawson ignores the reasons behind why Pacey beat up Matt Caulfield and why he bought Joey a wall. By trying to mimic those surface-level feelings, or show of emotions, it comes across as super unauthentic."
Also, we went to Wilmington! Update coming soon.
Episode links:
- Paula Cole beatboxing (1998 Grammys)
- Paula Cole beatboxing, pt. 2 (2016 "Jolene" cover)
- An Inquiry Into the Very Public Private Marriage of Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise (Vulture)
- Katie Holmes Had a Secret Whole Foods Entrance: An Update (Gawker)
Great podcast. I agree, Dawson's actions this episode are impossible to defend. I sympathize with how difficult the situation is for him, and him still having feelings for Joey is, but this is not acceptable behaviour. This is evil. I understand hurt, I understand him being broken hearted, even disappointed. But he's so selfish and manipulative, that he's acting like Joey cheated, when they only dated for like 4 months in sophomore year.
ReplyDeleteWhat was so frustrating to see, is that, after last episode where he was screaming in Joey's face and giving her an ultimatum: either break things off with Pacey or I withdraw my friendship. Here he's pretending like nothing is wrong with Joey anymore, trying to win her back with petty gestures, and just determined to humiliate and belittle Pacey at every chance he gets. I agree with what you said in the Podcast, I can appreciate what Joey and Dawson mean to each other, but what about Dawson and Pacey's history? What about their friendship? He does not give Pacey an ounce of respect, and talks to him as if he is some creepy guy who uses girls for sex. This is disgusting. I always had problems with their friendship, because what Dawson said in season 2 was true, he just wants Pacey there to feel good about himself, but Pacey was never supposed to get the girl. If I think about it, in season 2 he didn't even know that Pacey and his dad had an abusive relationship and just laughed it off. Like what kind of friend does that? A horrible one like Dawson who never respected Pacey as an equal, and this episode proves it.
I was annoyed when Joey climbed through that window again at the end of the episode. I understand why she did it, and why the prospect of losing Dawson is scary for her. He has been her safe place, and change for someone who lost her mother and father is a really scare concept. BUT it was still annoying to see, after everything Dawson's done, to keep reverting back to the same patterns. Her desperation to "get back to the way things were", and obsession with trying to regain the friendship she had with Dawson is frustrating to see. She's still not able to put herself out there, act on her feelings and fight for what she wants. Seeing her walk back into Dawson’s room after having had Dawson almost kill his ex best friend and treat her like some prize with zero personality, felt wrong. As much as she accuses Dawson of not wanting her, just not wanting to lose her, Joey is the same way with Dawson. She doesn’t want him, but he has chosen to exert control over her with fear, and she goes along with it in order to not lose him. For the second time in her life passes on an opportunity to experience new things and follow her heart.
I don't think Dawson's actions can be chalked up to age. They are all 16 year olds, and none of them are trying to kill their best friend, or being THIS emotionally manipulative. Dawson was brought up in a pretty shielded home. He never experienced change or conflict, until his parents issues in season 1. His parents divorce was the first time Dawson had to deal with something he didn't like. Pacey and Joey, on the other hand, have had rough childhoods, and Dawson's house and his family were seen as an escape from their own less than ideal homes, but they didn't seem to realize how their situations let them mature faster than Dawson.
I'm glad, after the initial shock, Andie was able to have that mature reaction and conversation with Pacey. I really enjoyed that.
Very well said!
DeleteI second this whole thing.
DeleteYou're right: Dawson has zero respect for his history with Pacey, especially after their camping trip. You'd think there would've been AT LEAST a conversation rather than an abrupt change to "eff you."
DeleteDawson and Joey are co-dependent to a damaging point, and that's something they need to grow up from.
Experienced sailor (and years of coaching & teaching sailing) here -- So having a sailboat race makes this one of my all-time favourite eps. And they actually made a sailboat race look exciting (watching a real sailboat race is about as exciting as watching paint dry.) BUT JESUS! Nothing Dawson did in the race came even close to being anything dangerous --he violated the rules of sailboat racing and it was a total dick move, and he needed to be disqualified - but it's nothing dangerous: he just forced Pacey to swerve when Pacey was trying to force him to swerve - this happens all the time in sailboat racing - it is normal strategy; forcing the other boat to swerve is how you win sailboat races. Pacey was aiming his boat at Dawson's exactly as much as Dawson was aiming his boat as Pacey's. Pacey had right-of-way under the racing rules ('room at the buoy' rule). By calling for 'room', Pacey was trying to force Dawson to swerve at that moment (and thereby lose the race), and Dawson just didn't swerve, which he should have done under racing rules. When this happens, you lodge a protest, and the boat-in-violation gets DQed. Exactly what happened in the ep - so well done by the writer & director.
ReplyDeleteThis whole "tried to kill Pacey" is just truly insane Dawson-hate. It has zero basis in reality. (but Haters gonna hate. It just honestly scares me how deep that hatred is.)
There is no question of 'ramming' or 'trying to kill' ... That's just completely totally nuts.
--BTW: It is pretty clear from the episode that JJAX really knows how to sail (the Will actor does not). Another reason to like the man.
(And the key scenes in the ep are all Will+Pacey. They'll always have Capeside.)
['swerve' is not the technical term, btw.]
Well I don't know anything about racing, so I'm being totally ignorant here. But what would've happend it Pacey didn't swerve? We know that he should've, under sailing rules, because Pacey had the right of way, but Dawson wasn't swerving and had no intention of doing so. So if Pacey hadn't, they would've crashed right? Even if the killing Pacey thing is exaggerated, he still has zero regards for a borrowed sailboat, which he would've damaged (leading Andie and Jack to get into major trouble).
DeletePlus, he entered a sail boat for totally ridiculous reasons, when he didn't even know the rules. Even if no one could've died by his actions (LOL), it's still unjustified.
Acting, Sailing, Ice Hockey, American Sign Language... I mean damn, is there nothing this man can't do?
DeleteNope lol I seriously don't think there is
DeleteSeconding the first comment: what would've happened if Pacey didn't swerve? We'd like to think that Pacey has a little more awareness for his own safety and is more attached to his boat than perhaps Dawson, who was blinded by his rage.
DeleteWe hope no one in Capeside lends Dawson a boat again, to be honest lol...
Sailing rules: if both True Love and Carpe Diem had held to their original courses and crashed into each other - both Pacey and Dawson would have been disqualified. Both are equally guilty because they both have a primary obligation not to crash into another boat, no matter the technicalities of the racing rules.
Delete(It's hard for me to read this page, the Dawson-hate makes my skin crawl and makes me want to take a shower.)
We do want to note here that everyone is entitled to their opinions, and nobody is wrong for liking or hating certain characters. We appreciate everyone being civil, and we know everyone is passionate about their feelings about this show. That being said, people are entitled to their hatred of Dawson, just as much as others are entitled to their defense – none of it makes the fandom toxic just because there is hatred for Dawson! At the end of the day, we're all fans and it's great to have such spirited debates! :)
DeleteWell said. I was going to say the same thing, they're just fictional characters, I love and hate characters in every single show. It's a good thing that a shows can evoke emotion in people, and it has to do with the story, characterizations, acting and many other factors. I strongly dislike Dawson, but there're reasons why I dislike him, and I can express those just as much as anyone. And if someone loves Dawson, that's fine too, and we can debate. That's the point of the comments, and discussions.
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ReplyDeleteMy question is: when has Dawson ever shown any regard for Joey's feelings?
When he dated Jen despite obvious signs that Joey was jealous? Nope.
When he read Joey's journal and used her private thoughts against her? Nope.
When he constantly brought up Joey's request for space/to "find herself" as a means of shaming and punishing her? Nope.
When he wrote and directed a film about their breakup? Nope.
When he turned in her dad despite her begging him not to? Nope.
When she came to him, trying to reconcile, completely vulnerable? Nope.
What. the. fuck. What kind of friend is that? Their friendship is so one-sided. Even right now, everything Dawson is feeling is so utterly SELFISH and the fact that no one is acknowledging that is just infuriating. Why doesn't Joey get to move on with whomever she likes?
I agree, Dawson was extremely obnoxious this episode, but nothing he did was out of character. He's always been self-absorbed and selfish, and unable to put other people's feelings and needs over his own. He is everything that I hate about self-proclaimed "nice guys".
DeleteIt was the same way with Jen, granted he never "loved" Jen (and you could make a case for him never "loving" Joey, at least not selflessly), but his relationship with Jen was never at all about them, it was about this movie like fantasy he created in his head. Which is why he freaked out when she admitted she wasn't a virgin. The same thing with Joey, he jumped on board that relationship only when he saw her in an evening dress, and from them on he just created this other movie in his head that said their were soulmates and destined to be together for eternity. Even when she gets together with Jack, he tells Jack at one point that he "stole" Joey, and when Jack points out that Joey is not someone who can get stolen, and she isn't a toy, Dawson just ridicules whatever Jack thinks he and Joey have, saying he's deluded if he thinks he has something "real" with her.
So this is not at all out of character. It's made worse by the fact that Pacey is his best friend, and that it blew up in the worst way possible, sure. But It's disgusting to see how horrible he treats Pacey, and just dismisses him and everything Pacey is as a person. Also, he checks out of their friendship (which was questionable to begin with) from this point on until the end of the series, but that's another story.
We think this is a big reason behind why the writers shifted focus and tried to make Dawson less of the "main character" of the show beyond season 3. They didn't develop his character well enough to allow him to grow in the way that others like Jen and Pacey got to grow (and it's growth we got to see). Flawed main characters are one thing - and they're interesting narratives - but not when they're too selfish to recognize their own flaws. (From Traci: it's kind of how I feel about Harry Potter sometimes to be REAL honest lol...)
DeleteGreat pod episode! I enjoyed it a lot
ReplyDelete(This will have to be in two parts, sorry! lol)
Ok first it's very weird that Traci and Charles mentioned Katie and Tom's divorce because Sarah and I were talking about it a little bit yesterday LOL Too funny
Second- I am not interested in the Jen and Henry storyline so I don't care that Grams got upset with her because Jen really should've called lol It's nice what Grams said to her though when they made up though.
Gail/Gale and Mitch- Nope, not a fan of the Leerys. 1- because they raised such an narcissistic asshat 2- they bore me as characters lol
Okay onto my thoughts about the episode- The promo you played for SML had me laughing out loud. That was crazy! LMAO Oh my gosh those promos seem like they had 3 meters- 1) Exaggerate, 2) Lie or 3) Be overly dramatic. It was so over the top hilarious.
I think I expressed my disgust with Dawson at length last week under the 'Longest Day' episode but every time I watch this episode I hate Dawson even more lmao How he acts like Pacey meant nothing just validates what I've been saying. He was never a good friend to Pacey. Ever. The way the writing came off is that he was friends with Pacey because he felt he was better than Pacey and his comments in his Bday episode 'Be careful what you wish for' that he basically likes when Pacey isn't at his best because it makes Dawson feel better about himself. Then he accuses Pacey of stealing that freaking cheat test thing and a true friend just would never say any of that crap. I hate that Pacey and Joey felt like they needed to be this jerk's friend. I mean it makes me angry lmao I need to take deep breaths
Andie ignoring that her relationship ended with Pacey because she cheated, not because he couldn't just get over it and continue dating her. She broke that trust and the fact that he continued to be her friend and support her makes it even worse that she reacted the way she did. Plus it makes no sense! How did she have the right to feel betrayed???? Pacey had been single for how long? How on earth did he betray her? Good lord these writers lol
I mentioned under TLD that Dawson being angry at just Pacey really was making it seem like Joey had no control over her feelings or her actions and that Pacey somehow controlled her or forced her to make the same decisions Dawson was mad at Pacey for. It's annoying. Joey asking Pacey to talk to Dawson is absurd. She heard what Dawson said to her- that her friendship is the only thing that matters to him enough to salvage. Why does Pacey need to grovel to that asshole after Dawson makes that remark? (the fact that Charles called Dawson an asshole made my day!) Was that not a red flag that Dawson does not give a shit about Pacey? lol
So I really do wonder why the writers made their title character such a villian in this? Triangles are better when it's a hard choice. Yes Dawson has always been a selfish prick but in this triangle, who the heck besides Joey would pick Dawson over Pacey? There was no difficult choice in this. It was presented as comfort and history vs something new and passionate and nicer and sexier and hotter (sorry my Joshua Jackson adoration slips out) Why not make Dawson less villainy and have Pacey still be Mr wonderful and then present the triangle?
*waves* :)
DeleteWe can't believe we forgot about that part during season 2 during his birthday when Dawson belittles Pacey! We've gotten a few emails about this too haha. It feels similar to the season 3 "Valentine's Day Massacre" fight between Dawson and Joey when they talk about putting each other in these little boxes of who they think the other person is, and then never letting them be more than that.
DeletePart 2
ReplyDeleteI have my theories but I wasn't there so I don't want to speak for Greg Berlanti and the other writers but I'll just say what I said last week: There has been chatter that JVDB was a little shall we say difficult back then while Josh was seen as "Mr Popular" and Josh has said they did not get along while the show was on and he said part of it was because JVDB had liked Katie Holmes as well (we all know Josh and Katie dated for a time) and he also admitted they almost came to blows on set a few times and that he doesn't know what might've happened if Katie hadn't helped defuse the situation.
So since Greg Berlanti said he used to hang out with the actors and party with them before he became showrunner, I'm wondering if the writing for Dawson's reaction to Pacey had a touch of reality in it if ya know what I mean? *Cue Gin Blossoms " Hey Jealousy" link to Joshua talking about what I mentioned about he and James not getting along -
http://josh-jackson.net/career/press-archive/2004-mirror-in-ireland-interview/
Also the fact that Pacey was racing for Dawson's mother's restaurant and he still didn't give a shit, just sums up how shitty and selfish he is completely.
I had more to say but I forget now lol I loved the pics of you two in Wilmington and I'm looking forward to hearing about it all!
On to Anti Prom which makes Dawson an even bigger dick lmao
The only thing I have to say about Anti Prom besides it being one of my all time DC favorite episodes is that I feel horrible Pacey. He has been essentially cast aside to spare the feelings of Capeside's biggest jackass and I just hate it for him. He sounds like he can barely talk when he's telling Andie he sometimes feels sad. Ugh
Dawson is just unbelievable. Acting like he was supporting Jack being discriminated against because he's gay all so he can manipulate Joey into "choosing" him over Pacey even AFTER Joey telling him she did not want anybody else having romantic intentions for her. He said he would do anything and do as she asked but once again as per usual with Dawson is that he disregards what anybody else may want and focuses on only what he wants. Nobody else matters in his world. It's sickening. Then he gets mad when he sees Joey and Pacey dancing. It occurred to me yesterday while watching Anti Prom for the hundredth time that despite Dawson seeing how much Joey and Pacey were longing for each other as shown while they were dancing, that too didn't matter to him. Pacey and Joey were obviously hurting that they weren't together because they ended things mostly on Dawson's behalf, and what does Dawson do? Continue to be a bratty piece of shit and then he shouts at her when his lying and manipulations failed- "How could you do that to me?!!! Are you trying to hurt me?!!" I swear I said so many expletives watching that. I mean, if I were Joey I would've taken my shoes off and given Dawson a Karate Kid kick to the face. Holy crap he's too much. I'll babble some more next week about the other stuff including how Joshua Jackson acted out the infamous "I remember everything" scene that ruined boyfriends for almost everyone who likes boys lol
From Traci: I can't remember where I read this, but it was recently (around the 20th anniversary, I believe) when somebody said (I think Greg Berlanti?) that James and Josh weren't particularly getting along by the time it hit season 3, so playing up the tension between Dawson and Pacey was natural and that way they didn't have to do a lot of scenes together.
DeleteBut then during the Entertainment Weekly reunion stuff, they talked about how they were roommates during filming and had a great time.
That 2004 interview you linked is interesting. I think they're friendlier now though? During the reunion stuff, James had posted an Instagram Story from when they got coffee in the morning and they seemed friendly. (I should've saved these Stories lol cuz no one saved them)
Sometimes I wish D.C. aired during the age of social media because I want the tea lol
ahhhh the "I remember everything" moment is one of my favorite of the series. Joshua Jackson is perfection.
DeleteMaybe there was some tension Joshua Jackson and James Van der Beek during filming, or mabye one of those things where you spend too much time together, and sometimes need to separate. But I beleive they're on good terms now, I think last year they also reunited at one point and even posted pictures together, and seem fine now. Which make sense, I mean they're older now and way past DC.
DeleteTraci- Yep, Josh and James are friends now. James even went to see Josh's play in May. I think they started off as friends which would be the time they were roommates but like Josh said, I think the fact that James liked Katie too but she and Joshua started dating made things tense plus I read they would butt heads over how to do scenes lmao Maybe some of it had to do with Pacey/Joshua was becoming increasingly more popular than the title character? I mean Josh did (arguably) become the show's leading man for a reason. Man I'm with you, I want the tea. I need someone to write a book... or start a tell all podcast lol
DeleteOne of the things that stood out to me from this episode is when you both said that Joey was so scared of losing Dawson because so many of her other family members left already.
ReplyDeleteAnd like, I place none of the blame on Joey (it’s all on Dawson). I do wonder why she can’t just let herself be happy, and be with Pacey, but your conversation really put that into perspective, thank you for that. Like dang, I want to give Joey a huge hug.
Cannot wait for Anti-Prom next week. It might be my favorite episode of DC (has it all, romance, angst, happiness, heartbreak) but if not def in my top 5 (True Love has all that too now that I think about it haha). Can’t wait to hear more about Wilmington too!
#GiveJoeyAHug
DeleteLoved the podcast as always! I am glad they redeemed Andie in this episode, at least you did something Will! ;)
ReplyDeleteI LOVE the next two episodes, can't wait to hear your thoughts.
Those Katie Holmes articles are insane!! What a crazy situation.
ReplyDelete