"Angel hair is a passé noodle, but you know...it's a good time." -Charles Lam (2019)
We're sorry for the incoherent rambling of this episode. It was very late :(
"Angel hair is a passé noodle, but you know...it's a good time." -Charles Lam (2019)
We're sorry for the incoherent rambling of this episode. It was very late :(
Audrey's speech is just another example of writers trying to rewrite history. Audrey said two things about Pacey and Joey that annoys me every time I hear it. She said Joey was the one that got away (from Pacey) and that Joey broke his heart. Where the writers high? Pacey broke up with Joey. Whatever reasons he gave Joey, it was his decision to end it so Joey didn't get away, he let her go. She didn't break his heart, he broke her heart. Why did the writers feel the need to rewrite that? Also, Pacey and Dawson made peace in season 4. Now we're supposed to believe they still hate each other even after Pacey gave Joey his blessing about she and Dawson "Getting their shot" because supposedly they never got one (again even that was a lie on the writers' part) and Dawson and Joey had a chance to be together but it exploded in their faces like it always does so why would they still hate each other? Again making it all about Joey. Both instances are all about Joey and making her into this majestic being that these men will forever be at odds over even though it was Joey's choice to be with Pacey so there is no reason for Dawson to "forgive" Joey yet not Pacey especially at this point. The whole thing is very irritating. I don't know how this show got a bunch of hack writers together for two seasons.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I thought Audrey’s rant was fine. She lashed out in a way designed to hurt everyone. Doesn’t have to be the total truth or include things she doesn’t know about. Even then, what has the Dawson/Pacey friendship been since end of season 3? Basically non-existent, when prior to it they were BFF. Wasn’t Dawson even surprised to see him at Mitch’s funeral, like a “what are you doing here?” type response (of surprise, not anger). They’re on cordial terms, but at a huge distance because of what went down, fracturing a best friendship that really never could or would recover. They never talk or associate together, gee I hope they don’t bring money into the mix too…..
DeleteAnyways, it’s also semantics but I think Joey (or really more Joey’s situation of getting ready to grow and grow up out of Capeside) broke Pacey’s heart, he knew he wasn’t good enough for her or they wouldn’t be in the same place at the same stage of life. Which, from Audrey’s perspective is true. Audrey was a good partner to Pacey, and remember what after they were together for a year she overheard Pacey’s true feelings that he didn’t love her. Pacey never held a girlfriend in that low of regard, he def loved Andie and Joey and treated Audrey worse, so I think she was just spewing bitter feelings in order to make them as unhappy as she is.
While I do think Joey added to Pacey's insecurity about her feelings for Dawson, she did not break his heart by wanting to go to college. He dumped her in front of their 12th grade class. He broke her heart. His own insecurities caused him to feel he wasn't good enough. As for Audrey's speech, you're entitled to think it was fine, but I doubt the writers had what you're saying in mind. It's not the first and only times the writers have done this. While they did have Joey mention Pacey broke up with her later on in another episode, what would be the point of the writers having Audrey spit out a bunch of untruths to hurt them? I think the writers intention was for Audrey to be speaking the truth to hurt them and make them feel uncomfortable because they know she's "right" but in reality, she really wasn't in regards to Pacey and Joey. Later on the writers did once again decide to ignore all the progress Dawson and Pacey made previously to stir up that ridiculous Joey came between them storyline again. It makes me want to gag lol All in all, it's a matter of perspective and I respect yours, just saying I don't see it the same way.
DeleteI think the time that Joey mentions that Pacey broke up with her is just about the only time the writers of the show EVER remembered that (shout-out to Gina Fattore who wrote that episode).
DeleteNo worries, Leslie, I respect your viewpoint too and you certainly aren't wrong! IMO, Pacey did have a broken heart, though it is unfair to blame it on Joey..But her aspirations were to get into college and outgrow Capeside, two things Pacey was incapable of as a senior. That did break Pacey's heart and made him withdraw from the relationship (not very mature by him) and then he in turn definitely dumped her at prom. But I mean she was kissing Dawson like 2 episodes later (which is a whole different can of worms) so.....
DeleteMaybe I'm giving the writers too much credit but I do feel it's OK for a very angry Audrey to bring up the nasty Pacey/Joey breakup, if only to emphasize to Eddie (who I don't think knows much about Pacey...right?) that he's walking into a lot of history and Audrey's doing what she can to sabotage as many people as possible at that table and bring everyone down. I was always fine to give them a pass for that since Audrey was mixing alcohol and pills and just trying to spew venom.
She was kissing Dawson at the end of the season because the writers insisted on shoving the pair of them together at the end of every season (except season 3) - presumably just in case it was their last one, so they could make sure they ended on the 'and the soulmates lived happily ever after'.
DeleteI never thought it made much sense, other than Joey was having a nervous breakdown??? "Coda" is one of my least favourite episodes. Ugh.
Typo- ***Were the writers high?***
ReplyDeleteAgree with Leslie A all the way: the retconning was strong in s06 (and all about Joey). Just to add: My vision of season 6 writers' room. They are sitting around, drinking coffee, looking at the plot-lines on white board as they break the next episode when the head writer says: "Why don't we include something with the gay kid? Uhhh, what was his name?"
ReplyDelete#JusticeforJack
DeleteIt feels like the writers are teasing us. They give Jack a love interest (David) who seems like more fun than either Ethan or Toby, then we don’t see if again who god knows how many episodes.
DeleteI must be sleepy too. I meant to say we don’t see him again for god knows how many episodes.
Delete#JusticeForTheMcPhees!!!
DeleteI'm with Leslie on this one too. It kinda drives me crazy that the writers forgot that Pacey was the one who broke up with Joey back in season 4. In an incredibly cruel and public way, no less, which I still haven't forgiven the writers for because I still think it was seriously out of character. But I digress.
ReplyDeletere: Anonymous's comment, you said that Pacey "knew he wasn't good enough for her" - I disagree. He *thought* that. She didn't. That's on him, not her.
But Audrey was right about one thing ... ;)
"He *thought* that. She didn't. That's on him, not her." I'll buy that, Kate. As I said, maybe my quibble should just be that Pacey's heart was broken not WHO did it.. Joey got into the big time college and was leaving town. At the time it didn't look like he was going to graduate high school at all. It's not Joey's fault Pacey felt inadequate, but her bright future vs. his bleak one still made it very daunting and hurt him, as an immature and insecure person that was scared.
DeleteYeah, I agree with that :) I think ultimately Pacey broke his own heart. He realised very quickly that he'd made a mistake in doing so, and that he'd blamed Joey for something that wasn't her fault, but by then it was too late. While I hate the episode where they break up, I find their dynamic in the next few episodes compelling to watch. There is so much pain there but also understanding and a certain amount of trust that remains.
DeleteIt's a shame that Pacey never saw his own value, because someone with his level of charm and work ethic actually had a greater chance of becoming successful than the likes of Dawson, who was much more self-absorbed and self-aggrandising. I'd hire a Pacey before I'd hire a Dawson! (Although I will say Dawson has somewhat improved over time.)
That's partly why Pacey is so obsessed with making money and being all successful when he comes home for Christmas, because he's living the life that he never thought he'd get to have. It's a shame Doug never quite manages to unpack that. They skim over it in the Doug/Pacey scene and then move on. Although I guess we will get back to it in a few episodes' time...
Another great podcast episode! I was also driving while listening to this one but didn't feel the need to shout at Charles this time :)
ReplyDeleteWas great to hear from Josh from COTW, and I wholeheartedly agreed with his take on the Joey's final situation. I'm not sure if anyone really called back to season 4 in the previous comment section re: Joey getting to retake tests, but the same thing applied that time - she'd already seen the test, so one can only assume that she got given different questions the second time she took it. (Although they did cut to her studying short answer questions with Pacey that evening, which was a bit suspicious...) At least she was actually a good student at that stage. Pacey did successfully convince her teacher to give her another shot though, which is just another reason why Pacey is better than Eddie ;)
Why were Grams and Jen in Capeside at all? They don't live there anymore. Where were they staying? Grams sold her house and there was no evidence that they were putting up at the B&B. I wish they'd been allowed to stay at home in Boston and have their own little Christmas storyline (a happy one, even!) instead of being dragged back to Capeside and sat at the table with nothing to do. At least they got more screen time than Bessie and Bodie ... and I don't think that you mentioned this Traci but that's also a series wrap on Bodie now :(
Also I love Doug, but he hasn't ALWAYS been the voice of reason in Pacey's life. Remember the time he pulled a gun on Pacey in season 1? Doug didn't really get on Pacey's team until mid season 3 when their dad makes Pacey spend the night in jail and Doug brings him coffee and Pacey tells him that he's in love with Joey. Dougie is definitely an MVP by this point though, and easily the best male role model Pacey has ever had, which is slightly alarming in itself. I wish they could've brought Sasha Alexander back for an episode. Christmas with the Witter siblings would've been way more fun than spending more time with Todd and Natasha...
Looking forward to the study hall next week :)
I didn’t think Joey and Eddie meeting each other’s families was as big a deal as they made it out to be They’re both so young. It’s not like this is the step right before marriage. Eddie should definitely learn to finesse the truth though. He could have talked about jobs/opportunities he would like to pursue rather than the lackluster answers he gave to Mr. Potter’s questions. It was also poor parenting strategy on Mr. Potter’s part when he brought up Dawson getting Eddie a job in front of everyone. Nothing drives a teenager further into her slacker boyfriend’s arms than the disapproval of a parent. Teenagers do so love to feel like it’s them against the world. The show definitely missed an opportunity for Joey and her dad to hash out their feelings in this episode. It would be nice to see Joey tell her dad that he over stepped his bounds and have him in return explain his parental protectiveness.
DeleteI hated Joey and Dawson’s conversation at the end. They always talk so much without ever really saying anything. They go on and on about hurting each other, being there for each other, and helping each other figure everything but they never get into the concrete of what the heck they are figuring out and what they want from their relationship.
Agree with Kate that a Witter Christmas would be nice. I’m sure Gretchen would give Pacey some good advice about how being a stockbroker wasn’t for him. She would also do it in a sweeter and less abrasive way than Doug..
This show is a plethora of missed opportunities. Would have loved to see a Joey/Mr Potter interaction - I originally thought that was where the story was going, but it just fizzled out.
DeleteDawson and Joey are so painful together that I usually fast forward through their scenes.
Gretchen definitely would have sat Pacey down and had a proper conversation with him. *sigh* I miss Gretchen. I never liked her until my 2019 DC rewatch and now (aside from her decision to date Dawson) she's one of my faves.
Like they said on the pod it really stinks this was the series wrap on Joey's dad (and Bodie!!!!!) Especially Mr. Potter to just show up casually and everyone is fine with it, after last we knew it was MIA, that sucked. We all know show has enough Joey so I'm fine with not having even more, but some actual resolution to the Mr Potter arc would have been nice.
DeleteEverybody has made some really great points and I loved reading what everyone had to say. I just really wish Greg Berlanti had stayed on after season four. I think he would've kept the show balanced. They say he was a consultant for five but he was working on Everwood I think so he probably didn't have much say at the end of the day. It's interesting to hear commentary from EP Paul Stupin, because he admits they should've waited on that Dawson and Joey kiss especially when nothing really came from it in the next season. It's just so weird about their choices. They spent a year on the Pacey and Joey build up and romance only to try and erase it all in the next two seasons until someone I guess realized that their final season was coming to an end so let's draw in viewers by milking the popularity of the Pacey and Joey coupling only to ruin it a few episodes later.... For Eddie no less only for him to leave permanently a few episodes later. I don't get it. Seasons five and six were like that. Her gross "romance" with the professor, Charlie, Dawson, Eddie and Pacey. They'd pair her with them and then it was over in a poof. Now that I think about it, nobody really had a healthy and fulfilling relationship on this show. Pacey and Joey were happy on the boat but when they got back to Hellside, it started to implode. Mitch and Gail had that affair sl. Dawson and Gretchen were good together but they had to overcome her embarrassment for dating a teenager rightly so and they were never meant to be long term and poor Jenn and Jack. Grams and Gramps were the closest this show had to a healthy and fullfilling romance I think.
ReplyDeleteI love reading all these comments too, it's so nice to have people to talk Dawson's Creek with after all these years! I wish Greg Berlanti would've stayed on as well. I think he'd have prevented it from becoming The Joey Potter Show, which unfortunately it did. (And I say this as someone who likes Joey - most of the time. She becomes pretty unbearable by the end.)
DeleteNothing ever really came from the Dawson/Joey romantic entanglements beyond season 2. It would've been nice to see more of their friendship from season 4 onwards, rather than the constant back and forth over "will they/won't they" that plagued their every interaction. If they'd gone back to being friends, then much further down the line had decided that they were now grown up enough to give their relationship another shot, it could've been compelling to watch. (I say this as a huge P/J stan so I can't even believe I'm typing these words, honestly.)
Healthy and fulfilling relationships weren't exactly Dawson's Creek's forte. Pacey and Andie were reasonably functional and good for each other for a while. I do think Pacey and Joey were good for each other (at times) but the Dawson situation made it unhealthy - amongst other things, but that was the major roadblock for them in S4. In S6, the roadblock was Joey being indecisive and making inexplicable choices (aka shitty writing). Dawson's weird hangup about saving himself for Joey was also a problem in the Grawson relationship (Gretchen deserved better). I never liked Mitch and Gail. But Bessie and Bodie seemed to do okay, especially considering how often he was out of town. IMO, Bodie is the underrated MVP of the series.
I watched seasons one through four when they aired and only recently watched season five and six. Honestly, I didn’t hate the college seasons as much as I thought I would. Maybe this would be different if I has watched them back in the day. As has been pointed out on the podcast and in the comments, they had some good concepts (Mitch’s death, Jack’s downward spiral, Pacey and Dawson’s professional development, Joey and Pacey’s reunion), but the execution was really rushed. If they had just spent more time developing the stories rather than moving from plot point to plot point the last two seasons would have been so much better.
DeleteOn the subject of Joey’s season five and six romances, I’m an outlier here. I liked the concepts of Professor Wilder and Eddie. Yes, a Professor Wilder/Joey romance is gross, but I think it makes sense. Joey is a girl with daddy issue galore. Professor Wilder represents that caring supportive father. He encourages her and tells her she talented. He does so at a very vulnerable time in her life when she is in an unfamiliar environment surrounded by students who for the most part have had more advantages in life than her. I think the direction they took it was ridiculous. Joey becoming his muse isn’t believable to me. Him being a much older guy attracted to vulnerable younger woman does. I wish they had developed that angle and had Joey deal with the fallout of realizing he is a creep. Also, it would have been high drama for her fellow classmates to find out about their romance and have her deal with that fallout as well. On a side note, the idea that Professor Wilder is the sexy Professor on campus makes me giggle. I always think of him as sleazy Vinnie Van Lowe from Veronica Mars. As for Eddie, I think he makes a lot of sense for Joey. They have a common love for literature. He spouts off lines about wanting to ‘really live life’ . I think this is very attractive for a girl like Joey who desperately wants to escape Capeside and it’s small town mentality. Yeah, he’s moody and bitchy, but so is Joey. I do wish they had given Eddie’s character a bit more meat, but again everything in the last couple of seasons was rushed.
Happy relationships make for for dull television, so they couldn’t really stave off the angst for too long. I agree though that it would have been interesting if they had developed Joey and Dawson’s friendship and only then had them give romance a go.
First, Amen to Allison... said it exactly right. The writers were so close to having good storylines in seasons 5&6, but then go and mess it up. Here are some examples of how the writers had a good story or couple, but then later created a mess with it, making no sense. 1) With Audrey making Pacey/Dawson at odds when their actually fine with each other by this point. 2) With not letting it go with Joey/Dawson. When Joey finally realized she loves Dawson in a friend soulmate way in Seasons3/4, why couldn’t they have let it be? Instead, they open season 5 with her pinning away for Dawson instead of her ‘true love’ Pacey? Makes no sense. 3) After Eddie leaves and then writers bring us Castaways... Why would they bring Eddie back? And if so, why have Joey fall for his lame ‘I need you if I want to be a writer’ speech? Make her like early-seasons Joey- strong-minded and say no.
DeleteAny other examples of a great story that resurfaced badly?
I agree with so much of the above, about the forcing of D/J and basically ruining their actual friendship, about Audrey's inaccurate speech etc etc. Some other random thoughts about Merry Mayhem:
ReplyDelete- The Mr Potter popping up out of nowhere to interrogate Eddie was just super random...surely he would have empathy for him knowing people can't always follow a particular path...I know the writers wanted to create a conflict but still
- Audrey is OBSESSED with Eddie being working class, every second word out of her mouth about him is 'blue collar'. It's very snobby and contributes to my waning sympathy for her tbh
- As Traci and Charles mention in the podcast, Natasha inexplicably turns into a pantomime villain. Her speech in Dawson's bedroom made me cringe purely for the amount of times she said the word 'Dawson'. Bad writing
- Pacey's gay 'jokes' for Doug sure aren't holding up too well are they? Especially as Jack is one of his close friends and flatmates?!
- When Audrey says in her speech that Pacey can't commit to an adult relationship it makes me cringe a bit - he can, just not with you I'm afraid. She's convinced the whole break up is entirely his fault and he has wronged her but I really don't see it that way? He just didn't want to be with her, so broke up with her (I'm really not a huge S6 Audrey fan)
- In a similar vein, why the hell should Pacey take the rap for Audrey? He isn't her boyfriend, he is not 'responsible' for her spiral - she wasn't going to class and stuff way before her and Pacey started having problems. She doesn't seem in any way apologetic for CRASHING A CAR INTO THE SIDE OF HER FRIEND'S MOTHER'S HOUSE. She's really horrible to Jen for literally no reason. I get that she is having problems but sometimes you really do have to show up and take some responsibility jeez. I'm on Doug's side.
"Audrey is OBSESSED with Eddie being working class, every second word out of her mouth about him is 'blue collar'."
DeleteWhich is funny because all we know about him is he is a bartender and he likes to write/read and sits in on college classes that he's not enrolled in. Eddie isn't exactly a mechanic with his hands covered in grime or punching the clock at a steel mill or something like Audrey would have you believe.
It's also very bizarre, even for a TV show that there is no real reaction to Audrey driving a car through Dawson's house among the gang. I mean in real life that probably condemns the house (lol) but come on, no one barely bats an eye. Wasn't the unseen Lilly probably asleep in a room nearby too? She coulda been killed! Plotholes bigger than the forgotten hole in the side of Gale's house.
So true! If I was Gail I would have gone batshit crazy!
DeleteDid Pacey make those "gay jokes" about Doug from the beginning? Has Kevin Williamson (or Greg Berlanti) ever commented on it? Those definitely haven't aged well...
DeleteI feel like Pacey has been making these "gay jokes" about Doug for awhile. Maybe from the beginning/first season, but at least for the past several seasons. True that Jack was one of his roommates and didn't make those same jokes to him. Pacey doesn't seem to have a problem with LGBTQ people in general, so IDK why he makes these jokes to Doug.
Delete